Proggie vs. Trance

*phews*

thought I was gunna be getting decked on friday

I haven't voted yet, but obvioously I'll be going progressive. Never have understood Trance's appeal, but thats just my opinion.

Not expecting many votes for us either, only three of us I can think of...

I'll be well happy with a third!

lol, well theres the three!!!!

Come on, there must be more of us!

Dont think there is until Farmer gets on line 2moro!

Get on!!! At least one more, well over a third!!

Must say iam a prog type of girl!Lets see more of Papa and co please

Ah the prog V trance debate. Let me add my say to the discussion!

I think that prog is way better than trance and always has been. Even when trance was big at Gatecrasher in 98. Being a student in sheffield throughout Gatecrashers high points and attending most weeks I can say it did have some barnstorming nights. Many refer to the pVD nights. But in honesty Sasha had alot to do with breaking PVD in the UK. Playing his tunes like "words" as early as 97. Giving him guestspots at twilo and helping him get bookings with renaissance etc. Also while Gtaecrasher was big I was also attending the just statrted Tyrant nights at the bomb in Nottimgham. These had no press coverage as you say is so important Smart E, yet still went off my than Gatecrasher. At this time gatecrasher regurlarly booked sasha and co for 4hr sets. I once even saw tenaglia there and he rocked. Waht i am trying to say is that prog is better than trance and always has been! trance DJ's now are playin the prog unes from a year ago. ie Kosheen Hide U. Vaiio rapture etc. Also look at the quality of compilations back in 98. Somethin like Northern ex 2 beats GC black handsdown, not in the same league mate.

End of the day prog beats trance, with or without press coverage

(PS This has to be a contender for longest post ever)

i like both
but tance is the noly thing that really gets me goin....

LOL I should of guessed farmer giles would have his few billion words to say on this subject

It was long but not a touch on one of miss rachels post But this one I'm going to write will be massive... I want a big un

Lets start with the history fo trance and proggie seeing as you are so keen to dive into the past!

Trance is actually a subgenera of techno.

Back in 1991 people like Joey Beltram who made the tunes "energy flash" and "the trance" were the first few obvious producers to promote this sound. Acid house was "E" music, and trance followed suit.

It was similer to techno, only the execution was mellower, more melodic, still with minimal noises though. No drum rolls, no huge breakdowns, no bass lines, no monster synth mellodies. (all this would come later) Minimalism that would "trance" you out was the deal.....130 to 150ish, depending.....

Like all music, it would have died in a pure vacuum, so it evolved. The tunes got more mellodic, and clearer tunes could be picked out. 1993ish

DJs began to vacation in exotic places. Goa in India was popular. They brought with them their new "trance" and the love of the older acid house sound. They threw massive parties on the beaches. I wasnt there in India myself, unfortunatly as this music was getting made I was sat in a junior school in langley park

Back in Britain in 94, the trance there had gone through some changes. The origional version of the Orange Theme by "Cygnus X" (trance) and the older "Spicelab" tunes (a Hard Trance project by Oliver Leib) fit in here. At 155 bpm it was prefixed as "Hard Trance". Prolecult and the other German stuff fits here too. The sounds soon got more commercial, and modern dance takes
alot from this time......

After the golden years of trance (Future Sound of London, Energy 52, Orbital, LSg) a new style of trance started emerging, this is what I believe you have a deep loathing for - euro trance... This is about the the time you and I would of started getting into it (about 96/7) I was putting down my Jimmy J/dougal records and picking up my PVD/Energy 52 records. There was nothing really wrong with euro-trance... just there was far too much of it.

Something noticable about dance genres is their predictable evolution. First a style is simple or origional, then more polished, then it gets badly over done, then it gets rebirthed in a darker form ("acidic" or minimal or whatever), then that gets overdone, then the style dies and another genre takes the limelight for a time, untill it comes back in a new light.

If you look for a while most big clubs dropped trance - it got too big - they loked for different forms of music be it progressive - crasher, Hard House - Godskitchen, Funky House - Cream. Now you are seeing the beginnings of the rebirth of trance - I think... be it hard trance or some other form clubs are starting to go back to it.

This is how proggie came about in my eyes (you can correct me if you feel I'm talking shite)

House made a serious comeback, "progressive" overshadowed everything else for a time. I have tunes that have "house nation" all over them. This was about 1995 - I can't think of any proggie stuff before then.

Prog trance dates from 97. Not really earlyer. Some may have brandished the name around, but in reality back then they were just fusing trance with house and hey presto proggy was born.

So when you're reading mixmag and you read in an interview that "he was part of the seeds of the early prog trance, blah, blah," this is what they mean (I hope so, anyways!!! Otherwise I'll look a bigger tit than i already do )

Now comes my favourate part the media!!! Mixmag decided to jump on the new genre label (Prog tr), and informed everyone that the melodic, thumpy, "platipus sound" etc would be retro-titled "Progressive Trance" for convienience sake, because genres were becomming too messy and someone had to do something about it. They were basicly defining their terms in order to be better understood.

Now with clubs playing proggie magazines singing its praises - it was destined for the stars!

Sasha and Digweed started being recognised for their touring around 95, and are credited for popularising the prog house sound........ But both Sasha and Digweed would not be able to pioneer the sound you love, if it weren't for trance - trance is proggie's biggest influence.

So in retalitation to your point.

Yes Proggie is now much bigger than Trance, therefore magazines and clubs will rate proggie DJ's as "better", when techno was bigger I remember them rating carl cox as number 1... its swings and round abouts. I can't say for certain what route you and davey will go, but I can speak for the dance industry.

The dance industry is far too exciting and dynamic to stick with proggie for the rest of its days (you may well) a new sound will be pioneered first as underground then as cutting edge then as overplayed commercial cheese.... but one thing is for sure - theres plenty of life left in trance.

*breathes*

Jesus my fingers hurt!!!!

btw. I think that new sound will be the old trancecore that Promise is pioneeing *nudge nudge wink wink*

Interesting Post! But their are a few points which are just absolute bollox! First of all if prog began after the golden age of Papua New Guinea, Energy 52 etc check out sasha's essential mixes from the very first creamfields, first track wasw Energy 52. Also cained Paua New Guinea. Aslo If you look at the very first renaissance compilations and northern expopsure CD's they did artists like Humate and lSG are shown heavily, even a bedrock mix of Humate 3.2. the word progressive means to progress, is ahead of its time, is pushing the music forward! Sasha and Digweed were playing these tracks a least a year before the trance DJ's you so lovingly refer to! Thats what makes progressive the dogs in my eyes. Its ahead of the game!

The biggest insult of all is to say that Sasha and Digweed first became recognised in 1995 after touring. Bollox! Sasha was resident at Hacienda back in the day and contributed as much to the scene in the UK as maybe Oakenfold and Rampling;. Residencies followed at renaissance with Digweed and shellys. Both helped to shape clubland as it is today! Give the man like some respect! He's a legend! To say he is as big as he is because of press attention is a load of crap. Oakenfold, Judge Jules and Tong etc have received far more. And if mixmag supports any genre at the min its hard house and the Gatecrasher sound. Not progressive house.

Peace

OK I aint a human textbooks I do make mistakes

But this is how I thought it went... correct me if I'm wrong

Sashas first break came at shellys not the hacienda, he would fuse US house records with trance - he was one of the pioneers - I'm not questioning that - but before the touring he was just a respected DJ - not a superstar. This is pure text book knowledge as I was too young to attend any of these so correct me if I'm wrong... while playing at shelly's sasha got a reputation as being very inovative and unusual as he fused Italian House with vocals and created his own sasha sound.... Having built up a reputation he teamed up with John Digweed where they became residents @ renaissance (I think could be wrong though?) this was about 93 when they started pioneering the proggie sound... but the progressive sound hadn't broken mainstream - it wasn't untill after the tour and after northen exposure (96 I think?) that proggie really started taking off and getting real (big) recognition from the dance industry, for both sasha, weed and other big name proggie DJ's... This is what I meant in my post... I may of phrased it wrong.

Anyways... be interested to hear more of ur opinions and correct me where I'm wrong - i aint the biggest sasha fan so my knowledge of him aint what it should be

Bloooody hell, it's taken me soooo long to read all the comments.... boy u lot have been busy.

Well well, i'm glad to see everyone is voicing there opinions...lol

Well this is my first post since the board's changed
and if i remember correctly we had a similar discussion on the old board. I remember saying i prefer prog i.e Guy Ornadel and daveyruthers ever so kindly pointed out he was'nt a prog d.j. After that Farmer giles posted to nicely tell me that he was in fact a mixture of the 2, thankyou.
Now i don't know that much or even claim to know that much about music/dj's etc but it seems to me that there are a some people who like pointing out people's mistakes but not in a nice manner, why

Well i have voted n i did go for proggie but knowing what i know now i believe its both.
So guys i voted proggie but i'm standing in the middle.



Lady M (aka Michelle)

I'm from the school of if ti can make me wiggle I fooking like it

If I at any time have come across as pretentious I appoligise now

I have to say the poll has come out better (in my opinion) than I thought it would!! Theres me thinking progressive would have 3 votes (me, davey and giles), but its almost there.

I don't expect it to ever get on top, just so glad its got so much support.

I agree with Smart E too, although I would use the word bounce for me, lol. If it makes me bounce then I like it.

Lady M

I didnt mean to be sarcastic in anyway. I just thought people would know that his style of music was not particularly prog. Sorry didnt mean out by it

i am an out and out trance head.. yet my best night/day ever was spent listening to lawler & digweed @ space played some amazing "prog"... go figure. at the end of the day its all just music and we all appreciate different aspects of it.. liek smart e says if it makes u dance who gices a fook.

argh!!! the memories!!!!

now this was a propper prog vs trance arguement!!!

i just thought id bring that one up! but i also thought that there is loadsa newbys who havent voted and that it would be interesting to see wot the score wos on the poll!

woooah, woooah, rewind. What was that SmartE? did u say Corvin's warming up this week?

proggie, proggie, proggie, funky, proggie, proggie, dirty funky, proggie, proggie, then trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance , trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance, trance.

Ps the funky's when I go upstairs for quick chill before main set starts

lol that was in november