Pointless

depressing huh?

Gossip is the least of my worries though, lack of alcohol, sex before marriage, bacon is of far more concern

strangely class a's are ok

This is gonna be complicated to quote your quotes hehe

Originally posted by Joe
The hebrew translation is:

"But he was wounded FROM our transgressions, he was crushed FROM our iniquities."

Christians deliberatly mistranslated bits of the song to compliment christian theology

I'm not a theologan so I'm a lil out of my depth here, but yea ur right I should have used a different translation instead of the NIV! However at the same time you must remember that it's not just about the direct translation because while that can sometimes be closer to the real meaning (I'm not just talking about this specific example) often it can lose the meaning of what it was meant to mean when it was written and to be as accurate as possible you must look into the intepretation via the context and various other factors. But you may well be right on this particular verse I shall let it go by as I don't know why it was translated that way in the NIV and others.

Didn't Yeshua attack merchants in the Temple area? According to your addition to the o..nly testament he did anyway.

Nope, he overturned tables and was very angry and shouted but was not violent.

Mark 11 vs15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

Which part of Isaiah 53 is this?

Verse 10

Yeshua was not descendent of King David....

Matthew 1
The Genealogy of Jesus
1A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

Which leads onto my next point...

I have no idea what you're getting at here?

The Israelites had not not heard from God for more than 300 years, when Jesus came they were due to hear from God again and since Jesus came 2000 years have passed without the Israelites hearing from God again

I thought he died for our sins?

Yes, he died to take away out sins so that we could be pure and enter into a relationship with him

In reality the Temple was detroyed by the Romans after they rebelled, it had nothing to do with Yeshuas death 30-40 years earlier.... The reason it was never rebuilt was because by the times the Jews were in such a position the power had moved away from the high priests to the Pharisees and rabbinic judaism (which revolved around a synagogue - not the temple) had become the dominant force.

I'm not talking about the destruction of the temple I'm talking about the symbolic tearing of the curtains, letting God out from his only dwelling place to everywhere and letting us into the holy place

all Jews had to visit the temple? I don't understand why you think some couldn't go?

I was talking about entering into the inner most part of the temple, the holy of holys, apart from the priests but the time i was referring to when noone could enter was in 1 Kings 8 10-12


Every jew has a relationship with g-d?!?!? We believe that every human does - this isn't exclusive to those that convert to christianity/judaism... Just as we believe that heaven isn't exclusive to jews or christians.

Not in the same sense that a Christian does. And it is an exclusive relationship to those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

lol get yourself to a shul... all that is new isn't true

I've been to shul on a number of occasions (mainly Barmizahs sp?)and its interesting but kinda boring!! Apart from after when you go for snacks and drinks!

Post up your prophecies and I'll give you the correct translations, christians have been distorting the only testament for too long

Man thats a hefty task, that'd take ages. I'd have to find someone who had made that list! It has been done but im not certain where. I'll have a dig around.

And these prophecies ARE using the correct translations, the earlier disputed isn't necessarily listed in them.

Anyway, I've been to Schul so I think by your own logic you should get to church, a church which is part of the same group of churches that is in Newcastle is this one...

http://www.city-church.co.uk/

Check it out, you won't regret it! Just ask for God's grace and you will receive it in copious amounts and it'll be amaaazin! Revival is coming to the UK, be part of it!

Isn't that the same with everything? You can only subscribe to that you've been introduced to.

Nope, I was serious im afraid! Quite a difficult thing to put accross in a normal way! hehe, but no, I mean thats what I believe so what can you do? It's not an absurd statement if its true and neither of us have concrete proof to believe it either way so really, its potentially an absurd statement!

Tell him to fire away then!

yeah but assuming that the torah/old testament was written no earlier than 1606 year ago, and Class A drugs say ecstasy was invented 106 years ago...................

hehe. You are a naughty little Jew Joe.

Yes you certainly may, I was brought up in a Christian family which did give me a firm foundation, however, like many Christian youths I went through a rebellious period during my youth but then when I was 17 decided to change it around and commit my life to God and was baptised when i was 18. The question being, what made me make that decision and keeps me along that path today?

Well for some people it might be they just work it out logically and acamademically if you like, for me there are minor factors such as people I respect having great faith, all the prophesies of the old and new testament, the fact that that bible is an historical document, I have done a bible tour of Israel which was awesome and the bible is like a tour guide! Is amazing!

Jesus was alive (according to historians) and he was either the son of God or a madman, his followers (the disciples) witnessed and recorded his life and then went out to spread the word and were so convinved by what they had seen that they ended up dying for their faiths. There are all those types of arguements but for me while these all help and give my faith foundation the main reasons lies elsewhere.

The main reason why I believed in Jesus is because he is at work in the world today and I have seen and experienced this in a way that for me is completely undeniable.

In the new testmant there was a time where God sent the 'Holy Spirit' down to earth and it filled the disciples. (I'll give you the biblical references to all this if you like) The Holy Spirit is basically Gods presence on earth and the way he does stuff on earth.

The holy spirit is something which is very difficult to explain and its hard to understand until you've actually experienced it but basically its just an amazing feeling that you get when you are in the presence of God, it makes different people react in different ways but is basically just a tangible presence which brings with it a sense of incredible peace. As well as this there are spiritual gifts that this brings such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and various others and different people experience different gifts, I have seen them in action and exerienced them myself in incredibly powerful ways.

As well as the Holy Spirit there are things like God answering prayers in amazing fashions as well as testimony from other Christians that have experienced these different things e.g. my mate here at uni who went out to Argentina where there is a revival and she saw amazing miraculous healings taking place. Man, I dunno where to stop!

Basically, if you accept Jesus into your life and ask for the holy spirit and for Gods grace then you will find it!

Couldn't agree more, bible is all about personal interpretation... but to interperet you must first understand the literal meaning

Sounds like Yobbo to me

Another misquote I'm afraid, the Jewish translation is closer to:

"And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution (acknowledge guilt) he shall see children, he shall prolong his days and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand."

That would make Joseph the step father though? If Mary were a virgin and g-d were Yeshuas father... what does Josephs genealogy matter - they're not biologically related.

If the jews already had a covenant with him, weren't we already in a reltionship with him? he chose us after all

This had been happening long before the coming of christ, Jews had been worshipping outside of the temple for centuries.

Shul is supposed to be spirritual, not exciting?

If I want entertainment I go somewhere fun...

I've never been to an evangelical church, only catholic, but I shall take up your offer if only to heckle from the back rows

nah I've got love for my christian brethren - just enjoy talking scripture

Yea, so you should go to City Life Church in Newcastle too! It'll be amazing!

http://www.city-church.co.uk/

I wish I were, the last time I took class a's you were wearing silver cat suits

monkey do you ever evangelicize in public?

true that, I have g-d in my life and I have no more meaning than the g-dless.

I just have a different meaning, I was chosen - they weren't

Do you mean as in cold-contact go out and meet random people in the street? I do that occasionally maybe once or twice a year if that, most of my evangelism is with friends or acquaintances. I do a homeless Mission Group where we tell the gospel to the underprivileged and stuff like that but my my church goes out about 2 or 3 times a year into Leeds to chat to people.

You've got chutzpah kid

i have to say i havent read thru this thread coz i'm just bout to go to bed but i will say this. religion has its good points and does have some great moral teachings...however its like politically correctness, people take it too far.

this thread proves that point. the two of u are arguing over something that was "made up" over 2000 years ago, translated (pardon the pun) god only knows how many times and is more fairytale-tastic than cinderella. now for these types of tales to cause the amount of heartache, war and death in this world pisses me off.

the christian bible contradicts itself throughout and, if taken literally, gives me the impression that god is the nastiest piece of work the universe will ever see. case in point, the last few paragraphs describe how "if any man adds to or takes away from these words written here-in, god will strike down upon him every plague known to man"......what if he repents that sin?

however my main disbelief is how anyone in this day and age can put so much stock in a book written so long ago, put so much faith into something that is not only far from logic, but also scientifically (which has proof) bollocks (pardon my french).

but each to their own

goodnight all

Another misquote I'm afraid, the Jewish translation is closer to:

"And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution (acknowledge guilt) he shall see children, he shall prolong his days and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand."

Thats kinda strange, looked in a number of translations and none came up with anything about children and stuff, again i dont have the theological knowledge to answer that one

That would make Joseph the step father though? If Mary were a virgin and g-d were Yeshuas father... what does Josephs genealogy matter - they're not biologically related.

Matthew's geneaology traces Joseph's line of descendants, and deals with the passing of the legal title to the throne of David (David-Solomon-Jehoikim-Coniah-Joseph-Jesus). As Joseph's adopted son, Jesus became his legal heir so far as his inheritance was concerned. The "of whom Jesus was born" (Matthew 1:16) is a feminine relative pronoun, clearly indicating that Jesus was the physical child of Mary and that Joseph was not His physical father.

If the jews already had a covenant with him, weren't we already in a reltionship with him? he chose us after all

Thats right, the chosen people with covenant with God, that was the OLD covenant and when Jesus came he brought with him the NEW covenenant which is not only for the Jews but also for the Gentiles.

Romans 3 vs 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

This had been happening long before the coming of christ, Jews had been worshipping outside of the temple for centuries.

There's a difference between worshiping God and being in the place where he dwells.

Shul is supposed to be spirritual, not exciting?

Church is incredibly spiritual and I'm on an incredible high after church, extremely exciting!

I've never been to an evangelical church, only catholic, but I shall take up your offer if only to heckle from the back rows

Do it! I'm back for the weekend of the 9th of December we can both go and have a gander see what its like!

What's that like?

Guys can we continue this tomorrow I'd love to stay up and continue this debate answer your comments (Ness + Rossy) but ironically I've gotta be up @ 7.30 to get to a prayer meeting and bible study!





To be continued......