Pointless

If we are to imagine Hashem as a parent it becomes easier to understand, the parent of baby that is crying because it’s ill would administer medicine. The parent knows that if he gives the baby medicine it will cry, but he knows that whatever short term suffering that child may feel through drinking the medicine – the long term rewards exceed it.

Jericho occurred at the dawn of Judaism, a time when the jews were infantile and extremely vulnerable – 3000 years on we’re not the same people. Just as a child aged five and a child aged twenty five are not the same people. Where Hashem once overlooked our every move he now stands backs and allows us to learn from our own mistakes and tragedies.

Just as a parent would.

If we are to imagine him as non-existent it becomes far easier than that to understand I'd like to think my parents wouldn't stand by if I was getting attacked, 'so I would learn from it' I'd certainly hope they wouldn't help me as a baby to kill other babies.

Right Joe, here's the Dawkins question, you have no need to justify yourself to me or anyone else but I'm interested:

What is it that makes you believe in Judaism over any other religion?

I believe in the g-d of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

Its that simple.

I know you believe in it, I don't know why.

You're an intelligent person, but I honestly do not know the reasoning that leads you to one over the other.

As a scientist, it's instinctive to me that one should have a reason for believing that which one believes.

I find it astonishing that your arrogance prevents you from accepting the beliefs of others.

Science is great at explaining things, but its not very good at explaining people.

I'm not saying they cant, all I'm saying is whatever the belief and however a child is brought up this is still "forcing their views down peoples throats". If this is simply not bringing the child up to watch television, this is reversible, if it is not dressing your child in designer clothes, this too is reversible, and the child can make their own decision later should they choose to do so.

What I meant by my comments was not to sound fascist, I am simply trying to say that baptism and circumcision and so forth, it is making a choice for a child which becomes irreversible - should anyone be allowed to make decisions like that for children?

Its the same kind of thing where I HATE mothers who get their babies ears pierced - aaaaaah no! what if you didn't want them done?

Shouldn't people be allowed to make an informed choice about the matter when they are able?

It is ethically wrong to do this in my eyes - by the same token as simply asking questions to a set of people for a research project needs ethical consideration.

I'm not discounting myself from this however, I will make decisions which I feel best for my child when the time comes, but with choices that I make I don't feel I would make any irreversible choices, and when they are old enough, with each decision I make, I am going to do my darnedest to make them aware that it is just the way I do it, or I feel, other people think .... or some people don't agree with that because....

Above the basics, I want to give my child a balanced view of the world, whether that means explaining the Bible, the Torah, science, evolution or anything else that comes along. I want them to see that different people hold different views on things, and that you must tolerate others in society, whether that is for religion, politics etc.

What they believe is not a problem, as long as they are choosing it because it is right for them.

This has nothing to do with arrogance and everything to do with curiosity.

I entirely accept the fact that you do believe in Judaism.

What I do not know are the reasons why you or anyone else believes in Judaism or any other religion; and I want to know why, to help me understand why the acts I detailed earlier are carried out.

We agree on most of it - you don't believe in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or any of the rest of it. The only difference is that I don't believe in Judaism either and you do.

What is is that makes you believe Judaism and not the others?

If you have no reason, then at least that is a reason, and helps me to understand that religious people do not think the same way as me or other scientists.

But I understand why people subscribe to those faiths and I don't pass judgement.

You're unable to do this, you don't understand why they do - so you go out of your way to humilate and offend them... How else could yesterdays signature be interpreted?

The reason most people subscribe to a faith is because they feel that there is deeper substance to material existence... Myself included.

Sorry, but throughout the ages Atheists have been burnt at the stake as heretics, classed as witches, been unable to get into high office etc etc

If I ridicule religion; it's because I find it ridiculous, and I would ridicule any argument presented in such a manner, with similar evidence base - this includes superstition, astrology or whatever, however strongly my hairdresser believe in them. Do you have a problem with my ridiculing Mystic Meg? To do otherwise would be double standards on my part. Yesterdays sig was, I thought, a great, succinct expression of my cynicism towards the attitude that religion somehow provides a superior morale opinion to those of non-religious morals.

Your answer partly answers my question, in that it answers why you think people subscribe to any religion. It doesn't, however, answer why you subscribe to Judaism and not a different one. I suspect the answer is sociocultural; I'm sure you'll accept, however, that a scientist might find this unsatisfying as an explanation for the origin of the world.

Again, here, you're attacking my arguing style and not the arguments:

That there's no evidence for the existence of a god
That it's not correct to assume that just because you can't prove there's no god that it is roughly equally probable that he exists and doesnt
That even if you do believe in a god, the stories aren't an appropriate moral analogy for modern life, and aren't appropriate for teaching to children as an example of 'good ethical practice'
That believing in something with no good reason is illogical

Should a parent be allowed to cut her childs hair? In many societies you are prohibited from cutting hair.

You overlook that it is the culture of society which dictates what is socially acceptable and what isn't.

If a child wishes to leave that society later in their life; circumcission, short hair and baptism wont stop them... We are all "force fed views" as we grow-up, some of them like science and math seem very rational in modern England - while others like religion seem alien to many... But both are views a child is forced to learn (although forced is a clumsy word, it does not describe the process... but I'm using your language).

The vast majority of choices you make for your child will be irreversable, from the country you raise it to the father you choose (g-d help them if its Ness )... Its impossible to raise a child in any other manner.

This is a very vague statement, the upbringing your child recieves will determine the path he/she chooses. Its impossible to expose your child to all the knowledge in the world and its impossible to expose your child to a bias free source of information... There is no shame in this, but don't imagine for a second that secular english upbringing is any less "forceful" than a religious up bringing.

A very intelligent position.

lol andy your argument is "I don't understand how someone can have faith in something that can't be proven by science"... Its not exactly hard for me to win that argument.

If your asking me to prove g-d's existence you're a schmuck... Judaism is a faith not a science.

No I'm not, and I have never asked you for proof.

I'm asking for a good reason why you would believe in what you do, if there isn't one, then it's hardly surprising that you get the response from the scientific community that you do. Try going to a scientific conference and presenting a theory with no reason behind it - surely that would be ridiculous?

The reason I ask for your reasons is because you try to use Judaism to explain scientific concepts, moreover, you argue against the scientific concept that the universe was not designed. ALso:

The beginning of the world
The origin of the life
The development of life
etc etc etc

It may well be your cherished belief; but if you have no reason or evidence for such a belief it then it is my opinion , and the opinion of scientists and most reasonable people, that your 'reason' for believing it is inferior to one with reasoning and evidence behind it.

All im saying is that beyond the day to day basics (like what is socially acceptable in this country and what is not) , I aim to teach my child that there is more beyond whatever decision I make for them/they make for themselves. I'm not kidding myself that I will bring them up without bias, I will bring them up understanding it does not have to be that way if they so choose- that they have a choice - there is a larger constraint when in a religious family is there not? If you reject the idea of your families religion does this not ostracise you from them more than it would in a non-religious family?

why dont you kill yourself, then u have nothing to worry about

faith - pah. it's blindness.

i must stay out of these... i get so wound up

I don't understand why my beliefs provoke such hostility from you... Such bigotry is usually reserved for the far right.

We've gone over this argument so many times I'm bored of repeating myself; there are scientific reasons for my belief like anthropic princple & there are historical reasons for my belief like Mt. Sinai... However, the over-riding reason for my believe in hashem is faith.

I believe there is a deeper level to our existence than the material world.

Not at all, families hold different values... Where as a religious father may be dissapointed if his daughter becomes an athiest, a pascifist may be dissapointed if his son joined the army.

100 years ago most Jews were Jews because they were born Jewish ghetto seperated from the rest of society, thats not the case today - most Jews are Jews by choice; they could leave their religion at anytime... This is the case for most western religious folk.

I've got LOADS!!


Man I can't wait to get my teeth stuck into this debate again!!!