middle east

what do Hizbu'llah have to do with the WTC?

Hizbu'llah are muslim fundamentalist group who's raison detre is the destruction of the Jewish state... Surely you're not suggesting Israel are guilty because they exist?

That would be undeniable antisemitism.

I'm not, don't worry.

But I don't accept that the kidnapping of 2 soldies justified destruction of infrastructure on the scale we saw in the early conflict.

I also don't believe the threat from the rockets was sufficient to justify the level of response we saw.

I don't believe sufficient effort was made to find a diplomatic solution.

The responsibility I ascribe to Israel is due to the fact that the majority of civilian dead were at the hands of their weapons, controlled by their soldiers, under the command of their government.

My reading of international law on this subject suggests to me that it is incumbent upon an army to take all reasonable steps to avoid civilian casualties - my reading of the methods used by the Israelis suggests to me that not all reasonable steps were taken.

Of course Hezbollah is wrong for firing from civilian areas, but come on. They're terrorists, and if captured, would be prosecuted for their crimes. This doesn't make them stupid - they aren't going to stand out in the open and wait to be killed. That they are in civilian areas raises the responsibility on the army to minimise casulties - this applies equally to the Americans in former Yugoslavia, and the storm of international condemnation they recieved for their casulties.

If you don't want your army prosecuted in the same way as the terrorists, it is vital to maintain the distinction between the two - that being that one obeys the international rules of war, the most relevant being the Geneva conventions.

The damage inflicted on Lebanon reflected the military tactics of Hizbu'llah, you cannot credit such extreme carnage to the kidnapping of 2 troops, the damage Lebanon suffered was a response to the missiles fired into Israel.

I don't think you realise the damage a Fajr missile does ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cERo8I4HZNQ ) entire cities were levelled from such attacks, Israel couldn't sit back and allow a terrorist organisation to reign down missiles on its people - you're living in a fantasy world.

Airstrikes were the only viable option and as you seem unable to present a feasible alternative I suggest we move on and you respond to my antisemitism post

Shall I dig out the before and after aerial pictures of Lebanon, seeing as you dislike the idea of cities being levelled?

Israeli civilian casulties were very low relative to Lebanese.

Re the anti Semitic UN:

I can't see why the internation community shouldn't objct to the following incidents:

# * Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
# * Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
# * Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
# * Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
# * Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
# * Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
# * Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
# * Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
# * Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
# * Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
# * Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
# * Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
# * Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
# * Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
# * Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
# * Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
# *Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
# * Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
# * Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
# * Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
# * Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
# * Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
# * Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
# * Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
# * Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
# * Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
# * Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
# * Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
# * Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
# * Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
# * Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
# * Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious
# obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
# * Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
# * Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
# * Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member
# states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
# * Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
# * Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of
# two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
# * Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the
# council's order not to deport Palestinians".
# * Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide
# by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
# * Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
# * Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its
# claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
# * Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported
# Palestinian mayors".
# * Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's
# nuclear facility".
# * Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan
# Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
# * Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
# * Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
# * Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
# * Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and
# allow food supplies to be brought in".
# * Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions
# and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
# * Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
# * Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
# * Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia
# in attack on PLO headquarters.
# * Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw
# its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
# * Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students
# at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
# * Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices
# denying the human rights of Palestinians.
# * Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly
# requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
# * Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
# * Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
# * Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
# * Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians
# at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
# * Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United
# Nations.
# * Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of
# Palestinians.
# * Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and
# calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
# * Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
# * Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians
# and calls for their immediate return.

It would appear the Israelis are not whiter than white, unless you can supply evidence that each event detailed there didn't happen, of course.

I wouldn't worry about the UN being racist, it doesn't look like Israel pays any attention to the resolutions anyway

Resolutions 106, 111, 127 – 1950-1960

During this period there were acts of genocide & expulsions from in Algeria, Brazil, Burma, Burundi, Cambodia, China, Columbia, Congo, Cuba, Ethiopia, Ecuador, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Iran, Kenya, Laos, Mexico, Morocco, North Korea, Pakistan Paraguay, USSR, Venezuela, Vietnam, Yugoslavia.

Israel: 3,000

China: 20,000,000
USSR: 16,000,000
Sudan: 1,000,000
Yugoslavia: 500,000
Brazil: 200,000
Algeria: 150,000
Columbia: 150,000
Vietnam: 90,000+
Burundi: 50,000
Madagascar 50,000
Burma: 15,000+
Iran: 10,000
Rwanda: 10,000

Less than 0.01% of genocide related deaths were carried out by Israel in this period, yet Israel received more resolutions than almost any other country listed above… During this early period this could be explained by the infancy of the state – countries born out of the Holocaust tend to capture the attention of the global community… However as we delve into the next decade this excuse loses validity.

Resolutions 171, 228, 237, 248, 250, 251, 250, 252, 256, 259, 262, 265, 267, 270, 271 1960 – 1970

Israel: 3,000

China: 10,000,000+
USSR: 2,000,000
Sudan: 1,000,000
Indonesia: 500,000
Cambodia: 360,000
Nigeria: 1,000,000
Yugoslavia: 500,000
Ethiopia: 150,000
Guatemala: 100,000
Laos: 100,000
Vietnam: 45,000
Angola: 40,000
Iran: 10,000

Less than 0.01% of genocide related deaths were carried out by Israel in this period, yet despite this miniscule percentage of genocide related deaths - Israel received 10% of all UN SC Resolutions between 1960-1970…. I believe that to be more than any other state over the course of the decade.

When states like the USSR and China are committing war crimes on scales that humble the Holocaust, one has to question why a state guilty of killing under 5,000 (of those that seek to destroy it; unlike much of the ethnic cleansing of the era) is attracting so much criticism… The only explanation to such hostility is antisemitism.

Many believe that the Holocaust put an end to global antisemitism, but they are mistaken. The holocaust assured that antisemites couldn’t credibly apply their hatred of the Jews to racial models – instead they invented a new form of antisemitism; Anti-Zionism.

Such unified hatred of a tiny state struggling for its survival cannot be attributed to anything other than a deeper prejudice.

The 'one' explanation that Israel has a lot of resolutions against it is not that the entire world is systemically racist, it would seem more likely to be that Israel has done a lot that the internatonal community believes deserves their intention. And anyway, a lot of those posted above are resolution condemning Israels failure to comply with existing resolutions.

Once again you've presented a one-sided and incomplete summary as fact, but how can you claim they're all biased against you when in threads like this:

http://www.nucastle.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52164&perpage=40&y&pagenumber=2

Where you appear to quote the US, Canda, most of Western Europe and Latin America as supporting the Israelis in an interpreting a resolution in their favour.

So then....one minute they're all for you and the UN is great, the next they've criticised you bombing some more civilians/ignoring a previous resolution and suddenly they become rabid anti-Semites.

The alternative is that you're mistaken.

I can't believe I was looking forward to your reply, what an anti-climax.

I took an hour out of my day to look up genocide statistics and UN Resolution dates so that I could construct a robust case against the UN.

Over 50,000,000 people killed in genocidal struggles over a 20 year period (of which Israel can claim just under 0.01%) and you claim the UN response was justified.... I find that insulting.

If Israel received 10% of UN resolutions during a period where it was responsible for under 0.01% of the casualties of genocide, an external stimulus has attracted a disproportionate rise in Israeli criticism of 99,900%.... Statistics, Resolutions and History all contradict what you're saying.

You're not promoting a weak argument; you're promoting a pathetic argument.

I find your stance utterly defenceless and I doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this so I suggest we end the discourse as I'm starting to find your posts repugnant.

get a life u sad man

go brush your teeth Jimi

I'm disappointed you find my point of view 'repugnant', but then it's to be expected. You seem to struggle with the fac that intelligent people can look at the same facts and arrive at different opinions. I've supplied you with a list of resolutions against Israel, and their reasons. I've supplied you with an example from memory of the majority of nations of the UN backing Israel.

As you rightly state, deaths and human right abuses occur throughout the world. One function of the UN is to maintain internation peace and security.

However, you simply can't correllate the death toll with the number of resolutions, and the situations aren't comparable, the response to the resolutions is unlikely to be comparable, the ability of the UN to intervene physically is different etc etc etc. It's very simplistic to simply have some sort of equation to calculate the number of resolutions relative to death toll.

I think it's fair to say Israel has had a chequered 50 years - during this time it has been involved in more wars and conflicts than most nations, and I suspect the disparity between numbers of resolutions and numbers dead reflects the nature of a larger number of smaller conflicts.

The UN has backed Israel on several occasions, and many times members have vetoed resolutions critical of Israel.

If you truly believe the majority of the resolutions posted above are unjustified by the facts at the time, that they relate to events that have been grossly distorted, or were otherwise entirely justifiable and that the UN has taken a stance on the majority of occasions that is arbitrarily unfair to Israel, you must conclude that they are institutuinally racist.

If you look at the resolutions, however, and see a large number of incidents in which international intervention could be expected to improve the situation, however, that they are 'against' Israel reflects the flaws of Israeli foreign policy.

The UN has backed the state of Israel, its formation, its occupation of lands etc etc etc, yet its criticism of Israels failure to respond to resolutions aimed at improving conditions for Arab civilians reflects bias in your mind?! I believe all nations who ignore the will of the UN are subject to criticism by it?

I accept that I'm not going to convince you otherwise, by the way, you've clearly made up your mind.

However, to my mind, insufficient evidence exists that the resolutions I've quoted were unjustified to accuse the UN of racism.

could that lee kid want to sock joe's cock ANY more?!?!

joe - you should turn your trouser pockets inside out, they could hold them as u swan about town with a "yeah, he's my bitch" type face ...

stop fishing ya awld cunt

im not the one researching statistics and taking an hour off from work 2 try and proove sum1 wrong and go on like im gr8

( when i already know i am )

That is not what I presented; you weren't given a list of those killed in conflict, you were given examples of the calamitous acts of genocide being executed at the time the resolutions were drafted.

Genocide is the ultimate expression of human barbarity, it proceeds all synthetic suffering and is the most sinister example of mans dark capabilities... Organisations like the UN were established in the wake of WW2 to prevent such atrocities happening again and to aid those that fall victim to such cruelty.

I find your attitude disgusting, you're not only excusing the corrupt UN but in defending its corner you're protecting the executors of genocide that it "fails to notice".

It's not a fucking equation! Its common sense.

1,000,000 defenceless civilians ethnically cleansed following patterns of child kidnappings, mutilation, rape and torture should evoke a greater UN response than a country engaged in defensive operations.

Such utter nonsense.

The country was still in it's infancy during the dates I critiqued, thus the disproportionate international concern existed from Israel's conception.

There have been countries fighting far bloodier battles for much longer periods that repeatedly fall off the humanitarian radar.

If it were indeed about the concentration of war then the number of critical resolutions would be mirrored in those states at war with Israel. Despite being the victims of prolonged Arab invasions Israel has seen far more critical Resolutions than its neighbours.

You seem to think of the UN as some unified humanitarian peace making machine, when its a collective of the earths nations; state personalities are reflected in actions of the UN.

As there are many antisemitic UN states, there is a very strong antisemitic bias within the organisation.

Andy you haven't read the UN Resolutions, you have no background knowledge to the UN Resolutions - you've merely copy and pasted the list from some PSG and applied some half-baked humanitarian philosphy to it.

How can you sit there and tell me every UN resolution was justified when you haven't got a fucking clue what they say never mind whether they were just!