middle east

But thats exactly what you were proposing - Israel invading and reoccupying the Lebanon - I don't think anyone was suggesting that Hezbollah was going to invade and conquer Israel, bar the most deluded on their side.

Look at the steps they took over the past few years - fortification of Southern Lebanon, tunnels, bunkers - these are defensive positions, not the amassing of heavy armour and artillery you need to capture and hold land. Sure, they were stockiling rockets, but you can't take land with rockets, and they don't have anywhere near the forces to do so.

Hezbollah is now fighting a PR campaign that has frankly shamed Israel. Israel responded to the kidnappings precisely the way a terrorist organisation seeking increased influence would have wanted - like trying to kill a fly with a shotgun. They caused massive civilian casulaties and destruction of civilian infrastructure - whilst the Hezbollah war machine remained embedded and intact.

And now the next phase - Hezbollah offers $12000 to every person who had their home destroyed in Lebanon - whilst the democratic government is $40bn in debt, and unable to compensate. Israel, to my knowledge, has offered no compensation (cue Teknofish) to the 750000 or so displaced Lebanese civlians.

The government of Lebanon seemed to stand by whilst Hezbollah held on against a vastly superior foe.

What must this look like to the Lebanese civilians? Who must they think is running their country?

So far, at any rate, it seems to me as though this war has empowered Hezbollah, and a few hundred dead militants it can well afford for such a boost to its standing both in Lebanon and the Arab world as a whole.

There is a substantial difference between a militia surviving and the disabling of a militias capability launch ballistic attacks on foreign soil.

I never once suggested that Israel could obliterate Hizbu'llah?!?!?!

Israel are not waging a PR campaign - they're protecting their borders.... Its not a case of winning or losing a media battle!

This goes to show what a calculated attack it was, Hizbu'llah don't raise billions of dollars from Iran overnight.... This is a carefully thought through campaign which could ultimately see Hizbullah install an Islamic republic in Lebanon.... Great news for Israel.

Which is why Israel should not of agreed to the ceasefire.

http://www.nucastle.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57857

etc....

So, what exactly would be the purpose of your invading and reoccupying lebanon, if you couldn't even defeat Hezbollah doing that?

I don't see what continued fighting would have achieved.

I wanted to see a ceasefire weeks ealier in the conflict than it occured. I don't see what else was achieved, bar further civilian death and infrastructure destruction in the weeks that followed.

To disable their ability to launch balisitic attacks on Israel.

It would of prevented them from being able to launch further attacks on Israel! This ceasefire will not last - Hizbu'llah will re-arm and when they are in a strong enough position they will strike again.

Historically Hizbu'llahs objective was the resistance of an Israeli occupation, however over the course of history it's raison d'etre has evolved into the total destruction of Israel (along with the establishment of an Islamic republic in Lebanon), this ambition is confirmed with comments like the one below:

"Hezbollah's struggle will continue until the final destruction of the Zionist entity". Hassan Nasrallah. al- Manar Television,May 7, 1998

Because Israel have agreed to the ceasefire they must sitr and wait for Hizbu'llah to attack again... And this attack will come.

Unless you think the ceasefire will actually bring peace?!?!?

You're proposing permanent reoccupation of Southern Lebanon then??? The missile range is purely a technological issue - they're gaining longer range weapons all the time from Iran. Will the Israeli occupation move continually further north as range improves? How will you prevent missile strikes on the Israeli occupied areas?

You've already said that militia are good at resisting occupation/invasion, and we know that Hezbollah enjoys the support the southern populace. I think holding the land would be associated with significant military casulties, and massive expenditure, and I don't see that it could be sustained long ter.

A genuinly unworkable idea, and I'm not surprised that it's not recieved serious attention.

The only way there will be peace is with Israeli concessions. It should be putting its occupation of the West Bank on the table in exchange for recognition by Hamas, and providing financial support for the government of Lebanon to pay for rebuilding and military stabilisation efforts.

I can't tell you for sure that it will lead to peace. But I'm sure its a better chance than either the status quo ante, with Israeli incursions when it suspects weapons transfers, or this occupation.

No as I've stated countless times, Israel take out Israel immidiate threat then work with the Lebanese government to permenantly erase the threat.

LOL!

You're joking right? the majority of Israel didn't want to agree to a ceasefire... Forget about the international consensus as thats always been biased against Israel.

Israel handed back the Gaza Strip and attacks on Israel increased!

You make the common mistake of believing that Hizbullah and Hamas are freedom fighters, if they were freedom fighters they would be fighting for freedom - this is not the case... they are fighting for the destruction of Israel.

There is no middle ground.

How times change I argued with you for several pages on this one

Actually I do believe that the oppression and restrictions placed on Palestine is such that Hamas could be classified as fighting for freedom - though I don't think the same can be said for Hezbollah. Whilst Israel does recognise their right to exist, it doesn't appear to recognise their right to exist in freedom and prosperity.

Re Hamas' raison d'etre and the West Bank/recognition debate - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4661066.stm

The Gaza strip return was a start, but it was half arsed and doesn't go far enough.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. " (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

How is that in any shape or form the words of freedom fighters?

I was very naive to the middle east, I interpreted the struggle as a westerner - assigning western values and western reactions to muslim extremists.... After reading countless books, websites and papers on the struggle I am now of a much more informed mind... You cannot negotiate with fundamenatlism.

Infact I'll lay down the challenge - give me an example of muslim fundamentalist that have comprised their raison d'etre in the name of peace

Of course there are extremeists, and you're using the presence of them as an excuse to ignore the moderates I've already quoted.

What's the plan, obliterate them too?

Its precisely the continued Israeli repression that gives rise to this extremism.

There has to be a separate, self governing, autonomous Palestinian state - they are entitled to one, in the same way as the Israelis.

My impression is that this is increasingly acknowledged in Israel.

The Hamas government is proposing to recognise Israel provided it gets its state - being able to demonstrate that it has been able to negotiate such an improvement in conditions for Palestinian people would empower it, and isolate the extremists.

thats the Hamas charter andy - even the most moderate of Hamas members agree to it... very moderate

The vast majority of Israeli's want a 2 state solution, we didn't hand back the Gaza Strip for light entertainment... However there are still serious border issues to be resolved before sovereignty can be handed back to the Palistinians.

Come on Joe - you ask for an example of Islamic fundamentalists changing their ways for peace - look at the offer on the table!

Terrorists, we called them, we refused to deal with them, and suspended aid to their country, to the detriment of their civilians!

And here is the leadership, taking the unpopular but perhaps only realistic chance at peace!

Your people should be seizing this opportunity to improve the situation, both in terms of conditions for Palestinian people and security for Israel.

Your diplomats should be breaking down the doors of Hamas, ironing out these ´border issues´ once and for all - here is a chance for the peace and recongition your people claim to want, as well as the state and autonomy the Palestinians deserve - and yet they do nothing!

Whatever the situation in Lebanon - fighting the war on 1 front rather that 2 is surely preferable

how the fuck does Israel have the right to withold or give back sovereignty to the palestinians. It's their right. And it should not be up to Israel to decide if they should have it

Israel might have have withdrawn from Gaza but thats hardly the full story. They withdrew and pretty much locked the gates, denying all imports and exports, and began shelling the area pretty much from day one.

Again when you talk of Israel wanting a two state soloution this is hardly the whole picture. The two state Israeli plan is implicitly on Israel's terms which are frankly a disgrace. Even then there are plenty of influential people in the Israeli political establishment who believe in dumping the Palestinians in Jordan.

Re. Hamas, you reap what you sow, you treat the moderates with contempt, you'll get the extremists. Although i'm sure that suits Israel, gives them all the excuses they need to act as they wish.

ok so what land does Israel hand back?

what happens to jerusalem?

forks stop being a simplton - you're a smart bloke.

The first rockets fired were Qassam rockets.

It's a damn sight mght reasonable than the Palestinian solution!!!

HAHA which moderates did we treat with contempt?!?!?!

Please tell me you're not talking of the PLO.

Explain what you mean by the Palestinian soloution.

As much as Arafat was a waste of space, he was as much a terrorist as succesive Israeli governments.

it hands back the land it took by force in the first place

Jerusalem is claimed by so many only an international control solution can work there

and your constant advocacy of military force as a solutionto all this is smart?