Jack Straw...

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You've not paid enough attention to what Straw actually says he did - which is asking 'if they would mind' removing their veil....he claims many were relieved - hardly 'forcing someone to ditch their religious values'?

What are your thoughts on France preventing symbols of religion bing worn in schools out of interest?

And I'm not promoting forced assimiliation, or, indeed, anything like it. Is forcing black and white children to go to the same school 'forced assimilation'? Is encouraging immigrants to learn english 'forced assimilation'?

It's about tolerance and appreciation.....tolerance and appreciation of different religious and cultural values and traditions, but, by the same token, tolerance on their part that we apply different values in some areas such as sexual equality and freedom of speech that we can reasonably expect them to concord with as part of living in this country.

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How fucking patronising.... If a muslim woman in the Uk doesn't want to wear a veil - she wont fucking wear it!

what a condescending prick.

I think they're based on xenophobia, it's no coincidence that France witnesses some of the most horrific islamophobic incidents in the west (often government endorsed).

If you tell a black person he must go to a mixed school he doesn't cease being black, if you deny muslims to practise islam they cease to become muslims!

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Not the case everywhere though is it? Afghanistan before the invasion for example? How can you be completely sure there are no lingering pressures on women to wear them against their will? Orthodox Islam exists in the UK and has been used to 'justify' some horrendous oppression of women in the not-too-distant past. Here's a recent poll showing opinions regarding honour killings: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5311244.stm

Having said that successful multiculturalism is built on tolerance and appreciation, I have no tolerance for religious values that are used to justify oppression, or anything illegal in the eyes of our law, which I expect everyone to comply with.

It's not just Islamic symbols that have been banned though, it's all religious symbols.

Personally I think no religion has a compulsory place in modern education; it's absurd that our children chanting prayers whilst reading, writing, science and maths are so poorly developed

So, you support mixed race schools, but oppose the abolition of single-faith schools. Why?

Temporarily removing a religious item that is making someone feel uncomfortable isn't really deny them the right to practise their religion is it?

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What do honour killings have to do with religious obligations?

You can't connect a barbaric non-religious tradition with an inoffensive act of modesty which is an integral part of the islamic religion.

Are you seriously suggesting that the majority of british muslims that wear veils have had the veil forced upon them??? Thats insane.

Then explain why muslim women that wear headscarves have been sacked from jobs, refused to be served at banks and shopes... when this was initially only meant to target school kids.... Also explain why school kids still wear crosses but muslims are denied their basic human rights.

Its islamophobic propoganda dressed up as secularism.

That isn't what has been banned?!?!? Faith schools exist in France, they've barred religous imagery from secular schools.

Because the two are not the same, a race is something you are born into, a religion is a set of values and beliefs.... If you wish to enroll in a faith based school you should have an interest in that faith.... Faith schools are not their to boost grades.

Of course it is....

In nazi Germany they cut the peyot of jews... how is this any different?

there were a couple of women veiled at the school I took my son to in Whitley Bay. Everyone who takes their kid to school meets the other parents every morning and you gradually get to know them. I used to smile at the veiled women at first but you could never see their reaction so I stopped and never got to know them.
That just seems a shame. I know it's their right to wear what they like but there is no doubt it leads to seperation.
This doesn't apply to any other religious dress such as orthodox jew or sikh for instance.

And as far as I understand it the Koran does not say that women should be veiled. Only that they dress modestly. It's a cultural thing to decide what modesty means in any particular context/society. In ours at the moment that does not mean covering up your face. To do so is a statement of cultural seperation

Judaism has the talmud, islam has the hadith... this is an oral translation of religous law passed down form generation to generation.

The hadith is very specific on the hijab... Most of the jewish laws come from the talmud and the same is true for islam and the hadith.

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I didn't say anything about a 'majority', but I think you're being naive if you believe it doesn't happen at all.

I agree. Religion is a choice, and as such is as open to debate as any other choice people make. Race is something you are born with and cannot change and to discriminate against people because of their race is plainly stupid.
As a liberal I don't think people should be forced to wear anything or forced not to wear anything from the burka to the 'correct' trainers, but I also think I have the right to critisise that choice and to 'offend' people in the process as long as no violence is involved.

How is banning religious practises a criticism? The banning of hijabs is the transformation islamophobic ideology into islamophobic action.

Brid multiculturism isn’t a 20th century creation, minorities have existed in nations since the beginning of time…. To suddenly assume that people with different beliefs, skin colours, languages and values can no longer co-exist unless they conform to one standard is insanity.

Are you seriously suggesting that minorities cannot exist in England unless they ditch their native culture?

So the only way to avoid a racial war is the complete assimilation of any alien cultures and values? You sound like Enoch Powell!

Its like saying the only solution to anti-Semitism is to end judiasm, the only solution to sexism is to kill all women and the only solution to homophobia is to stop gays from being gay.

Do you think the veiled women of Afghanistan count calories, suffer from anorexia, have £5000 credit card debts to Harvy Nicks, are locked in an aesthetical competition desperately trying to keep up with miss jones?

The modesty laws at the heart of the monotheistic religions detract from materialism and places emphasis on the more meaningful issues…. Don’t be so quick to negatively judge cultures alien to you.

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andy you're argueing for the sake of argueing... you've just accepted that the majority of muslim women in the UK wear veils out of choice... so you can't cite oppression as a justification for your islamophobic attitude

Banning someone from practising their religion is not debating the issue at hand... its enforcing your values onto someone else.

I know plenty of muslim women and not one of them walk behind their husbands... don't confuse the islam you read in the mail with the islam practised in england

Jews suffer more than any minority under islamic oppression, but if I were to dismiss their religion so easily I'd be no better than the muslims that force my cousins to wear a badge.

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You really are the master of misquoting, but it makes you look stupid as people are quite capable of reading what the original person said.

I have no idea what percetage of women wearing veils in the UK are doing so not from their free will and volition, and nor do you - unless you have some figure with which to furnish me.

I suspect you don't.

However, the high prevalence (10%!) of support for something as extreme as honour killing makes me think that some pressures are still present in the UK for women to comply with Orthodox Islamic principles - and there were plenty of case reports from Afghanistan of women who chose to remove their veils when the governmental pressure was removed.

Orthodox Islamic principles and Sharia law do not apply equal status to men and women (under most interpretations). This is incompatible with UK thinking, principles and regulation, which, in the UK, take precedence.

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lets just leave thing just as they are then eh mate ? it obviously working !





she dose have some good points and might i add all though there is a small minority of racist peep's there , you tend to find the austrailian immigration program has worked wonders when i was last there visiting my unc and aunt i seen the cross section of peeps living in peace and it was all cos they all knew where each other stood, there was no devide like there is here chinees lived next to indian next to islamic next to auzzi and all seemed to get on fine

WOAH when did I talk about banning?
I said debating. I think wearing a veil in England is socially divisive and not necessary for the practice of Islam. I don't think saying that is racist or Islamaphobic.
People can wear what they like and I can say what I like about it.

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most places in england people get along fine.