In this morning's Metro

Errrm.......errrrrmmmm.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4333982.stm

aye, there is plenty of people that write/used to write and have met you....

backjumps at shields

No, I never met Joe in the end

Twas a good night

Do you honestly think that children in Gaza are any better off?

What Israel has been doing is disgusting. Hamas aren't anywhere near being in the right either, but do you honestly think the response has been even close to proportionate?

cant they just agree to disagree and live together ?

If only. Can't see it happening in my lifetime though.

how can you blame Israel though? We pulled out of the Gaza, surely that was the platform for Hamas to engage in the pursuit of peace.

It isnt by chance that there isn't a similar death toll in the Fatah controlled west bank.

I ask anyone who is critical of Israel... what would you do if it were your children?

Ask the same to anyone critical of Hamas?

I would try a strategy with some chance of success

Could you suggest this? I just get so tired of everyone slamming Israel - without a suggestion of how we can stop our people being attacked.

Andy, the withdrawl of Israel from the Gaza seems a good starting point... tell me what in their actions you see as acceptable?

My 2 cents worth - what the fuck would we know? Not one of us has experienced a cross-border dispute more dangerous than the time the kid next door wanted his football back after kicking it against our wall for days.

I think the onus is on Palestine and Hamas to try a non-violent approach. They are launching missiles and hiding amongst their own people, using the innocent as shields... it is sad, and I have always considered myself left wing and previously supported Palestinians, if only because they were the underdog and the casualties were heavier on their side, but as I grow older and maybe more jaded with my views, I find myself relating more to the Israeli side, that of democracy and freedom (at least a lot more so than the Palestinian side, well a more balanced society anyway). There needs to be balances within the Palestinian society that keep the extremists in check. I believe that Israel have their own extreme right and also, extreme left, and the power balances somewhere to the right of center, but it is balanced, whereas from the outside the Palestinian extremists don't seem to mind killing each other for power, and hiding behind their own people as shields. Instead, Palestinians need to start to think about what can work and what can't work for themselves.

Under the current situation (death to Israel etc.) the Palestinians cannot win unless Israel loses totally, and that will never be happen. Best option, tactically and strategically, is to genuinely seek peace, and that cannot occur unless the threat to Israel is removed. Remove the threat, and international pressure can for the first time be put onto Israel. Keep threatening Israel and they will keep doing what they have been doing, and will be continue to receive all the support that they require. And even if that support evaporates, they will continue to do what they are doing, because the alternative is certain death.

It will surely pain the pig-headed Arab/Palestinian sense of honour, vengance, blood feud etc. but the only way they are going to get anywhere is to let go of the past and start to think about what sort of future they would like to have.

why is the onus on the Palestinians?
The Israelis are an occupying power
they stole and continue to steal Palestinian land
they have never tried any strategy but might is right
The powerful Jewish lobby in the states make sure that no US president dare do anything than offer total support to Israel
The Palestinians are the victims in their land, they are the subject of ethnic cleansing
The Israelis are using the most deadly of modern weapons against a mostly unarmed civilian population with predictable results
they are in violation of UN resolutions regarding the seizure of Palestinian land

Technofish gets in a strop over a few Polish immigrants. Imagine if hundreds of thousands of them came and said they had a right to live here because their holy book said so and proceeded to herd us into refugee camps where we rotted for 40 years whilst they went round the world bleating that we had fired some rockets at them.

Violence never solves anything and just causes more violence and the blame game can go back 4000 years.

Israel needs to withdraw to the borders which were internationally recognised ie those of 1967 and dismantle the illegal settlements and offer aid and assistance to develop Palestine into a viable peaceful democratic state.

Those poor Palestinians who were herded out of their homes in 1948 and condemned to a life of exile will never see justice but even Hamas had agreed to a two state solution based on the 1967 borders.

We should not be asking any more of them than that

see above

The theory is that if Palestine refrains from violence, renounce their claims on Israel, then they will be granted more and more control of the land they currently have, lifting of embargo's, true self rule, access to the world, and if they continue to pursue non violent negotiation and reasonable claims for land in a two state system they would probably be granted more land.... this would get not only get global support but also Israeli support. The people currently in charge of Gaza, Hamas, do not want this for their people as they believe it is their holy right to take Israel by force

And the Israelis believe it is their holy right to take Palestine by force. And know what? they did so.
Hamas have stated that they would be prepared to renounce violence if Israel withdraws to it's 1967 borders.
Israel will not
What else is left to the Palestinians but armed resistance, even though they are hopelessly outgunned they have carried on the fight because they have nowhere else to go. 1.5 million of them are crammed into a space the size of the Isle of White with no employment and subject to a vicious embargo by land sea and air.
They are effectively in the worlds largest open prison. And now they are getting the shit bombed out of them.
Hamas did call for the destruction of the Israeli state and the more violence is meted out to them the more they will want that, but there is another way. They are the legitimate democratically elected government in Gaza and would tone down the rhetoric if they were given the chance to have some dignity and economic development. They have 40% unemployment for christsakes. 40%. All those idle hands with nothing to do but make mischief. They cannot be defeated by military force unless they are exterminated. I don't think the Israelis can do that without the rest of the Arab world piling in and so it's just a vile stalemate unless and until someone comes along with the vision to break it. There seems to be no one on the horizon though. Even Obama is a hostage of the Jewish vote.

It's a complete mess. I only know that pouring petrol on flames will not put them out