Faith schools

well I guess you're entitled to believe whatever you like and to keep two opposing beliefs in your head at the same time but it's hard to see how you can have Adam and Eve and the seven days stuff existing in the same universe as the scientific discoveries of the past 100 years.

was it charles darwins thery of evolution?

it still is

scientific theory compliments genisis.

In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced a remarkable observation. In every direction he looked, every galaxy in the sky was moving away from us. This was our introduction to Big Bang theory. To visualize this expansion imagine the Universe as a rubber sheet being stretched, if we were to stick pins into various positions of this sheet the pins remain the same size while the distance between them grows… This pattern is precisely what Hubble observed.

This expansion of the universe not only stretched space, but time itself... modern science tells us that time at the beginning of the universe was very different to the time we experience todat (the actual difference is 1 to 1,000,000,000,000)

This takes us back to creation, would any semi-intelligent person propose that 1 day at the conception of the universe would be equivelant to 24 hours today? Of course not, 24 hours isn't even the same on Jupiter.

If were at the beginning of time looking forward the earth would still be on the sixth day

The first day lasted 24 hours but the duration of that day from our perspective eould be 8 billion years.
The second day 4 billion years.
The third day 2 billion years.
The fourth day 1 billion years.
The fifth day half a billion years.
The sixth day quarter of a billion years.

Aging the universe 15 and 3/4 years, not bad considering the Torah was wrote down millenia ago... But it doesn't stop there if we then go onto compare biblical chronology of creation with modern sciences chronology of evolution the two are again one and the same.

On day one according to the bible all that existed was light and this was 15,750,000,000 years ago modern science states the same for 15,750,000,000 years ago.

On day two the bible states there was seperating of waters (this is open to interpretation but I believe it ot be the seperation of atmospheres with the introduction of gasses/liquids to the universe) which according to the bible happened 7,750,000,000... i don't have the scientific data.

On day three the bibles states that earth was created 3,750,000,000 years ago, modern science says it was created 4,500,000,000 years ago.

On day three there is also the first recordings of life 375,000,000 years ago, modern science first records life 330,000,000 years ago

Day 4 see's the modern atmosphere/visible sun: 1,750,000,000 to 2,000,000,000

Day 5 see's the first fish 750,000,000 to 500,000,000

Day 6 the first mammals 250,000,000 to 200,000,000

So you can sit there and be dismissive of genesis but don't assume for one second that it contradicts modern science... Far from it, for thousands of years Jews have being aging the universe.... For men 3 thousand years ago to not only know the age of the universe but the order in which events occured is truely extrodinary.

uhuh.

You're right to say that Hubble's law v = HD observes that the universe is moving away from us. This was the first good evidence for the big bang theory.

However, I think you're confused about the issues of cosmic time (or rather, the website you quoted from is); specifically, I think you are confused about the the issue of time at the start of the universe.

Could you therefore please reference your description of time, preferably referring to primary literature, and also your figures quoted from the Torah, preferably from reputable translations, as I can't find them with a simple google.

Also, could you clarify if the Torah makes any reference to the likes of dinosaurs or if the Torah makes any reference to evolutionary theory of man, or if g-d just sorted of plonked them there.

Ta

I quoted it from a blog I never finished.... in which I attempted to expanded on schroeders work (unfortunatly I wasn't as smart as schroeder and my blog remains unfinished).

But most of the figures are my own, with the biblical figures borrowed from schroeder.

I'll roughly break it down, the first single celled organisms started appearing in our oceans between 3,300,000,000 and 3,602,000,000 years ago... this was the first recorded life on earth.

The atmosphere we know today was started to form between 1,500,000,000 and 2,000,000,000 years ago... This atmosphere is known as the third atmosphere - the second atmosphere was made up of carbon dioxide, amonia and steam... It is my believe that this steam would of masked the sun (similar to clouds masking it today).

If you want to google the other first recorded life forms I mentioned a quick google will confirm what I stated.

As for the biblical timelines, they are extracted from calculating the age of the universe looking forward, to understand this I'll quote you the relevant text from schroeder:

It's an interesting read, but it's fundamentally flawed.

I'll accept your figures for the origins of life etc.

However, the whole reference to days is completely inconsistent, as if it were referring to days from the start of the universe as a literal time translation, then every subsequent reference to a day passing the Torah would be completely inaccurate.

Your argument states that the Torah's account of time is roughly correlated to current understanding (give or take billions of years) if you multiply it by a few billion, and then say that from that perspective we're still on the 6th day. Yet the Torah goes on to refer to a 7th day.

The first Sabbath (Shabbat?) hasn't even happened yet by this argument!!! The entire rest of the Torah hasn't happened! Moses hasn't even been born to write the Torah

It's a novel approach to reframing science to fit a religious viewpoint, but it's not a revolutionary and robust theory of the origin of the universe.

The Torah is completely inaccurate.

This is where interpretation comes into play, g-d does not recreate the seventh day again and again and again, yet every week we witness the shabbat... I believe the shabbat is a reference to what comes after the end of days (hence the holy nature of it and the lack of creation... once the creation/evolution/whatever is complete we will reach the seventh day).

We have agreement

I'm unclear why the Torah/whichever book should refer to the first 6 days in start-of-the-universe time, and then switch to something closer current time for the 7th day to describe all the following events and floods and locusts and all the rest of it with no kind of indication as to why this should be.

You say you believe the 7th day is coming; the Torah clearly describes it as having been and gone. Besides, you should be able to predict when the 7th day will occur by your reckoning. End of the world indeed.

Evolution will never 'finish', as mutations will always occur in our DNA (unless we develop a drug to stop it) yet we will never become perfect. We have changed selective pressures - no more is lots of fat good for keeping out the cold - your house and coat keep you warm, and the fat kills you when you have a massive MI at 60 - evolution doesn't care about this, as you've already reproduced, and therefore a mutation that stops you getting an MI any time after you've reproduced is no use from an evolutionary point of view.

You're entitled to believe what you like Joe - but you'll have a hard time convincing me or any other scientist of these fairly shaky, evidence free interpretations.

Of course evolution will finish, it is a phenomenon of this space time continuim, this universe was fniely tuned to support life and when this universe comes to an end... so will life.

I'm not trying to make you believe anything? Both yourself and forks have been mocking genesis, forks asked if I believed in... I explained my beliefs.

As for the seventh day, what happens in this space time continuim and wherever hashem exists are in my opinion two seperate things, we witness the 6 day creation as we are part of it... but what happens next we don't experience until the end of days... We are reminded of this by the shabbat, but we wont experience it for some time yet

Just don't be so quick to dismiss us religious folks, Jews have enlightened for much longer period of time than you europeans a couple of millenia ago moses had documented the order of evolution.

I'm not dismissing religious folk, I'm dismissing some of the things they believe.

In fact, let's consider Einstein, perhaps the most famous example of a religious scientist. Religion even made him cock it up:

Einstein famously said that God does not play dice with the universe, dismissing the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

This has been proven numerous times and forms a backbone of quantum mechanics that provide the best model for the understanding of the universe ever devised.

God is a dj

Solutions and remedies
Enemies becoming friends
When bitterness ends
This is my church

Ive signed up to this faith(less) school so yes lets here it for faith schools

:laugh:

Joe - you ADMIT your people wrote that book? the biggest lie EVER - no wonder the world hates you


saying that, i haven't read much of it. i did look up that pulp fiction quote once in a hotel - it wasn't as samuel jackson said it - i was very disapointed

No it hasn't been proven, there are two schools of thought neither capable of disproving the other....

My people didn't write the book, moses did... but the words were hashems.

with the exception of the last chapters - we are oblivious to who concluded the story.

Here is a link to a proof of it (unfortunately my A level wasn't quite detailed enough to allow me to explain this, but bright people accept it):

http://www.cbloom.com/physics/heisenberg.html

Here is Steven Hawkin on it:

And here's a nice little quote from Wiki on the success of quantum dynamics:

again where is this prove?

Your end quote just confirms everything i said... there are two schools of thought in which neither have been able to disprove the other!

The first link is a mathematical proof.

Bell's experiments are practical and very strong evidence.

That quantum dynamics is the best model of the universe ever concieved (it can predict movement and reflects experimental values with almost unbelievable confidence intervals), and uncertainty principle is key to it.

Perhaps I should add that it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt ....

I don't know a modern scientist who doesn't accept it.

However, if you wish to disagree with it, then by all means take it up with one of them, who will shred you even better than I can

how?

Einstein put forward the notion that their are two types of determinism casual and predictive; cd states that evey event is determined by previous events; while pd states that if we have knowledge of the causes of events and the laws of nature then we can determine future events.

To comprehend this think of rolling a dice, if you know the angle it will fall from, the force at which it will hit the surface, the direction of the fall and the way it rolls then it is possible to calculate the the face the dice will land on.

What may seem like chance is governed by order.

How can you disprove this? All Einstein is saying that what we now label as chance is actually predetermined, it merely seems like chance as we haven't the knowledge to calculate the results.

How can mathamatics or anything else disprove this? Its a theory which has split the science community in two.

day 1 light.
ok

day 2 dividing the waters......
a wonderful term which can be made to mean whatever you choose to make it.

day3 dry land and sea, vegetation, trees and fruit
fruit!

day 4 sun and moon
bit tough on the fruit to have no sun for 1 billion years

day 5 birds and fish
bit tough on the fruit to have no birds to eat it and spread the seeds

day 6 men and animals
hurrah here we go


It's a creation myth invented by a society who were looking for meaning to their lives thousands of years ago. In parts it is quite beautiful but to squirm around trying to fit it to modern cosmology is desperate. it's like the debate about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
the bible is either literally true or it is a set of stories made up by man. Every time there is a new scientific discovery which contradicts it the faithful tie themselves up in knots trying to explain how the bible really meant to say that all along.