Faith schools

Probably not but at the same time u don't see fully qualified chefs shooting or blowing up artists because they decided to follow art instead of cookery

thats my point, the radicalisation and segregation of communities isn't a produce of faith schools... islamic faith schools have only just begun to be introduced to the UK, yet the UK has never had a problem of Jews and Christians blowing themselves up.

To blame faith schools is insane as the majority of radicalised muslims were radicalised in mosques... The government should be focused on tackling the real issues rather than jumping on the latest bandwagon.

And universities apparently. Perhaps mosques should be forced to accept 25% Christians. Perhaps interaction with a greater diversity of faiths in childhood would prevent them getting radicalised in mosques later

What are the 'real issues' Joe?

absolutely correct, its not....its a product of religion itself.

lol no it isn't... Its a product of man.

A great example of this is Palestine, Palestinians carry out suicide attacks against Israeli's in the name of Allah... If you removed religion from the area do you think Palestinians would be any less radical?

No.

Similarly if Islam didn't exist in Burnley do you think the community would coexist in perfect harmony with their white neighbours? No.

Young muslims aren't blowing themselves up on trains because their religion tells them too, they are martyring themselves as reaction to British national and foreign policies... Islam is not the cause - it's merely another tool.

If you want to see an end to suicide attacks, tackle the root problem.

the point about faith schools is they get primary and secondary school kids. Art schools and agriculture schools get under-graduates.
If you go to a faith school and never meet anyone from out your comfort zone you become narrow in your outlook. how could you do otherwise? no one to challenge the views you are fed every day.
when you get to uni then maybe you get a kick up the arse but what about the ones who don't go? they sit in the ghetto learning to hate the ones who are different from them with no way of knowing they are getting propoganda.
White NF members are just typical of this sort of mindset before you get on the horse joe

Joe would do well to read this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusio...f=pd_ka_1/202-8910869-9739029?ie=UTF8&s=books

it's amazing the amount of customer reviews for this book. 153 when I looked. they range from fundamentalist atheists to fundamentalist theists and all points in between. I think Dawkins comes over as extreme and hectoring and humourless sometimes which doesn't help his case (which I agree with) but I'm glad someone is making the atheist case against a rising tide of religious influence all over the world which seems to me to be mostly malign in it's effects.
there are also some wonderful comments from people who claim to have found conclusive proof that evolution never happened.

and Joe has gone off to sulk because we are all anti semitic cretins and not worthy of his mighty intellect.......

One review of it I read made the point that yes, Dawkins does present and extreme and intolerant view, but that's exactly the scrutiny placed on new scientific papers and developments - imagine trying to submit a paper to an astrophysics journal now, containing current religious theories and the 'evidence' available to support them - you would be mercilessly ridiculed.

I've ordered this book, but The Selfish Gene was excellent I thought.

He expresses many of my sentiments in a far more lucid way than I can, and, therefore, I support the availability of such novels to the public, particularly from someone as respected in the scientific community as Dawkins.

you ever read Bertrand Russel on religion? he said it all for me and in a humane and non confrontational way.
basically his take was that religion developed because people desperately want their lives to have meaning and so are totally ready to believe anyone who tells them they have THE ANSWER.
Conversely people will reject the truth if it contradicts this faith no matter what

The reviews of this and other related books on Amazon is fantastic reading I love that debate like this takes place these days.

On Dawkins' God by Alistair McGrath:

yes but it seems to me that religion is making a massive comeback no matter how loopy.

However much money the US churches can throw at their indoctrination programs, they will continue to be ignored by the mainstream scientific community, unless they can produce some previously elusive and compelling pieces of evidence to support their claims.

Almost every religious argument I've heard has started from the wrong premise - ie, accepting what they believe is fact and then trying to manipulate evidence to fit his.

Science takes an experimental result/obseration as fact, and then develops a theory to fit it, as best correlates with the observations - as Dawkins says, the quantum theory that Joe was so quick to dismiss is so accurate in predicting observations that were similar accuracy used to predict the width of North America, it would be accurate to within a fraction of a hairs width

Reframing the creation story so that the first 6 days tie in (to within few billion years) of observations isn't proof or even evidence that it happened. It is an attempt to continue the 'you can't prove we're wrong' argument, which is what makes these debates so unsatisfactory.

What I have never, ever seen is a religious person explaining concisely and convincingly why they believe in a God. I can explain why I don't - there's no evidence.

We're not this bad at least:

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/art...=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage4

give it time. Science is on the retreat everywhere.

And where did I dismiss quantum theory?

You two are far more fanatical in your hatred of religion than any religious fanatic I've ever encountered, have you ever considered standing at the monument and preaching to the blind? You could show them the light.

If someone wants to follow a religion, what the fuck does it have to do with either of you condescending pricks?

It's already been said better than I can:

ah the sweet balm of reason has descended once more.

I think in my case it's cos I'm scared of what religion brings with it. or can.
people who beleive in irrational things can use them to promote all sorts of restrictions on my life which cannot be argued against because god says it's so.
I suppose some extreme examples were the inquisition the taliban and even the murder of jews in york but there are countless others like prohibition in the USA in the twenties to catholics dying of aids because they can't have condoms.
I don't mind anyone believing any nonsense they want as long as they don't start telling me I have to obey the 'laws' of their god

So much of the critique of that book applies to this thread

Just subsitute names:

like the war for democracy in Iraq?