Faith schools

I'd say both, with ignorant thrown into the package.

Can you explain the creation of the universe?
Can you explain abiogenesis?
Can you explain how energy manifests itself as matter?
Can you explain the fine tuning of the universe to support life?

If you can't explain any of the above how can you claim one theory is bullshit? You can maybe state that you find it unlikely... but to dismiss it is ignorance of the highest level.

I was meaning on the subject of creation joe .

Religion is a total hoax ! science on the other hand is a valid way of learning more and gaining a better understanding of what is around us .

The religious books are just a bunch of rules written down by men to control other men !

While i do believe there is something else after life or other than life i do not like the many religious leaders and facists pretend to know anything more about it . Pretend being the key word as not a single thing in any religious belief can be proven or dispoven therfore it is simply a theory and can not be trusted !

Can you explain the creation of the universe?No - so MUST it be god? no
Can you explain abiogenesis? ?No - i'm not a scientist specialising in that field. so is god the only other answer?
Can you explain how energy manifests itself as matter?No - i'm not a scientist specialising in that field. so MUST it be by gods hand? no
Can you explain the fine tuning of the universe to support life? fine tuning? don't make me laugh

there's billons of stars, galaxies, solar systems and planets - it's theoretically implausible that among all that SOMETHING wouldn't evolve the way we have. it's chance. Probability is that there's loads more instances of some kind of life in the universe, all evolving in different ways, at different speeds in a million different variations uncomprehendable to us - it's only MANS ARROGANCE that imagines WE'RE the centre of it all, as described stupid, short sighted ill-educated feafull humans a few thousand years ago.

don't be blinded by your religion. we're not alone. we're opened our eyes and seen the possiblity that we're no longer the centre of this universe - we're just an insignificant spec in an insignificant plant a trillion miles from anywhere. accept it.

arrogant? probably i suppose. but then, i don't force my beliefs down peoples throat or try kill people or steal land because of what i live by

I've probably met more holy men than you could care to imagine and I can assure you everyone of them believe in g-d with all their hearts... this isn't a medium for control... Viewing religion as a means control is self projection from the secular community.

You've just stated you can't disprove religion so how can you claim its pretend?

Science can't explain any of the above, all it provides are theories... the same as religion.

"If you change a little bit the laws of nature, or you change a little bit the constants of nature -- like the charge on the electron -- then the way the universe develops is so changed, it is very likely that intelligent life would not have been able to develop. " - Dr. Dennis Scania

"If we nudge one of these constants just a few percent in one direction, stars burn out within a million years of their formation, and there is no time for evolution. If we nudge it a few percent in the other direction, then no elements heavier than helium form. No carbon, no life. Not even any chemistry. No complexity at all." - Dr. David D. Deutsch

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived -- you might say a 'put-up job'."

"The really amazing thing is not that life on Earth is balanced on a knife-edge, but that the entire universe is balanced on a knife-edge, and would be total chaos if any of the natural 'constants' were off even slightly. You see," Davies adds, "even if you dismiss man as a chance happening, the fact remains that the universe seems unreasonably suited to the existence of life -- almost contrived -- you might say a 'put-up job'." - Dr. Paul Davies

"The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers (i.e. the constants of physics) seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life". "For example," Hawking writes, "if the electric charge of the electron had been only slightly different, stars would have been unable to burn hydrogen and helium, or else they would not have exploded. It seems clear that there are relatively few ranges of values for the numbers (for the constants) that would allow for development of any form of intelligent life. Most sets of values would give rise to universes that, although they might be very beautiful, would contain no one able to wonder at that beauty." - Stephen Hawking -A Brief History of Time (p. 125)

Hawking then says that he can appreciate taking this as possible evidence of "a divine purpose in Creation and the choice of the laws of science (by G-d)"


Yeah MoS the universe isn't finely tuned to support life

Just because something exists - does not mean that life will evolve?!?!? If you support evolution theory then you support the notion that the Universe was finely tuned to support life... it is an onwards progression founded on some phenomenal chances (if they are chance).

For example:

hahaha this tops it for me, you tell me not to be blinded by my religion (which you claim is a leap of blind faith), then go onto tell me to accept that the existence of aliens!

What is the belief of aliens if not blind faith?

MoS did i join a thread mocking your beliefs? No.

You're forcing your beliefs down my throat... not vice-versa.

And you cant prove it so how can you say its correct or follow it in the first place

because I believe there is enough evidence to support my belief.

hashem revealed himself to 2 million hebrews (a hard thing to fake before the common era)
the knowledge in the Torah seems far to advanced for its time (modern science is only just catching up)
the eternity of energy within this spacetime continuim correlates with the eternity of the soul within this stage of genesis

There are a million reasons I can cite to support my belief... But more importantl;y I have faith in my belief and faith in my covenant with g-d.

if we come to a conclusion in this thread, we can solve the worlds problems

This board could already solve the worlds problems.

But your eveidence is bull shit you cant prove there were 2 million jews there you cant prove why hashem chose to flash at them and there maybe knowledge in the torah that seems advanced but it proves nothing you can link lots of phrases ans sayings to things that happen now or have been discoverd because thats the religious way 'everything can be explained as an act of God '

Sorry Joe but i dont get how an intelligent person such as yourself can put his faith in something which CAN NOT be taken as truth and HAS NOT any concrete evidence to back it up just a book written by some very clever people along time ago .

OK, can you please explain how Judaism explains the following:

1) Why we have an appendix - if we didn't we'd be at no loss, and wouldn't have people killed by appendicitis

2) Why we do not have more coronary arteries - this could avoid heart attacks, and would be no disadvantage to us

3) Why the nerves from the retina go forwards before they come back, needlessly creating a blindspot

4) Why we don't have muscles and tendons on the other side of our arms and fingers to improve our range of movement etc

Evolution theory explains all this and more - none of these are a selective disadvantage before reproduction age, therefore evolution will not select them out and they will persist.

Your religious theory that someone has designed us all, however, is rubbished by it! We are terribly designed! We have an incredible number of useless parts and things to go wrong, and if you don't believe me, I urge you to study it.

I's a pity there isn't some handy word for enemy-of-religion for you to inappropriately and incorrectly use to describe people who have looked at the evidence and still disagree with you Jo(k)e

maybe god is just well shit, and all the other planets in the universe are gods attempts at trying to create life, but he only managed to get it right on earth.

Not someone i want to worship.

Quite.

but you have no concrete evidence to disprove anything, you can't even prove your own beliefs!

you're a hypocrit.

As for hashem revealing himself at mt sinai, its well documented from historians of the time that the hebrews believed hashem revelaed himself at mt sinai... now either 2 millions people lied, were tricked or really did witness g-d.

most of our understanding of the ancient world is from historians.... why should they be dismissed when talking on religion?

As for intelligence? a huge proportion of nobel prize winners share my belief.... many of the worlds greatest intellects subscribe to my perspective... obviously we're just not as enlightened as you.

Judaism supports evolution... do you read anything I type?

i don't want to pick on 1 point in particular - but i will.

There are 100's of reasons to explain THE STORY OF WHAT they saw, if anything. the appearance of god is just one - surley you can accept that fact?

Right back at you basically we can argue until were blue in the face non of it can be proved so maybe none of it is correct :spangled:

every other religion on this planet traces itself to one person who communicated with g-d, judaism traces itself to an entire nation.

hashem revealed himself to an entire nation, my ancestors witnessed hashem as did everyother birthright jew.

there aren't hundreds of explanations there are 3, the jews lied, were decieved or witnessed hashem.... i believe the latter to be more plausible.

or maybe we both hold our own beliefs and shouldn't be trying to disprove the other....

I'm certainly not trying to tell you your beliefs are wrong