does Israel have 'a right to exist"?

how can you give ground to nations and organisations that are hellbent on your destruction? how do you negotiate with fundamentalists who firmly believe their leaders? israel has tried in the past only to be rejected.

comparing northern ireland to the middle east is way off track.

You just describe the Barak proposal... with the addition of the right to return and $30bn compensation to those unable to return.

The Palestinians rejected it.

Sorry who started this war?

Did Israel tunnel into Palestine and kidnap innocent citizens?
Did Israel launch an attack on Lebanon killing 8 and capturing 2?

Israel are the victims of an injustice, we have been trying to find peace with Palestine for the last 50 years... Palestine is unwilling to embrace peace. We were at peace with Lebanon and Hizbullah launched an unprovoked attack on Israeli soil.

Forks how do you suggest Israel target Hizbullah, a terrorist group that disguises its location with human shields... You seem very critical of Israel yet you never mention the fact that its Hizbullah that choses to launch attacks from civilian populated areas.

How exactly is way off mark?

I'm suggesting that the only way to defeat terror is to remove the injustices thet cause it
Hizbullah is supported by civilians who see it as their only defence against israeli aggression. It uses terrorism which I deplore but it has no choice other than to launch from civilian areas or it would be a sitting duck out in the open.
If Israel responds by attacking random civilian areas in the hope of blowing up some hizbullah all it acheives is the creation of more fanatical haters of jews among the survivors.

i dont think its a suitable comparison, completely different situations. i know what you're trying to say but you dont really need to make a comparison.

very arguable, i dont feel muslims would be any less a dhimmi as a christian under jewish rule in a modernised peaceful israel... the refusal of palestinians to cooperate and the rise of terror groups has created mistrust and fear that creates a double edged sword scenario.

several arab nations have attacked israel since its creation, not the other way round! they ran the risk of losing land when they attacked and their actions have a massive part to play in the current situation!

different era and i wouldnt side with the stern gang but not because im british. i wont condone the killing of innocents full stop... even by israel in this conflict. but i do maintain israel has been subject to arab aggression and has the right to defend itself... ive said before i dont support a heavy handed approach, but neither can i offer a suitable alternative.

fair point, but why should the israelis suffer casualities just because lebanon cannot control its government, its people and who it shelters within its borders.

there are masive faults on both sides, but i firmly believe that its the islamic nations that need to consider their actions more than israel... there is a deep mistrust of arab nations that, while harsh at times, is not unfounded and solely down to islamophobia.

northern ireland is at a completely different stage of social and cultural development than the islamic nations in the middle east. its history is vastly different as are the people within its borders.

im not denying that there are comparisons, i just dont think they are very good ones.

I can't think of any real comparisons... but I'd love for Renzo to educate me.

But we have tried what you proposed and it was rejected... what happens then.

Of course they're war mongers!

Have you actually took 5 minutes to read up on Arabic history?

have you actually took 5 minutes to read up on european history? the worlds biggest warmongers have always been us

i can understand mistrust of the us and israel... its an opinion and there is evidence to support you... im not gonna go into denying that.

the claim that arab nations aren't war mongers is very wrong in my eyes... i cant be arsed to write one of my essays tonight but if this debate is still strong tomorrow i'll have a go. islam was spread by the sword in many areas... furthermore even the divisions within islamic nations and between different islamic nations shows the distance they have to go.

i feel deeply for islamic people's who want peace yet are drawn into wars and conflicts through little fault of their own.

even when arabs conquered much of southern europe? what about the mongols? europe has not always been at the pinnacle...

Arab history is one of war...

Jews are not European.

Maybe not, but Christianity promptly followed up with the Crusades. The arguement over which religion / geopolitical area can lay claim to a longer history of violence is largely irrelavent however.

My point earlier, and i acknowledge raising a comparison with Northern Ireland was slightly flawed, was that I fail to see how peace can be achieved through Isreal's current tactics. I'm not arguing it would definately be achieved by other means and take on board the point about Hamas not recognising Isreal's right to exist. However I believe current tactics serve only to increase resentment amongst Arab / Islamic nations and increase an anti-Isreali sentiment rather than foster an atmosphere of coopertaion. In the same way it has been argued that Bush's foreign policy is Al-Qaeda's best recruiting tool I fear the same may be the case with Isreal's foreign policy and anti-Isreali factions in the Middle East.

I'm by no means an expert on 'terror' groups but would be interested if anyone can give an example of when state force succeeded?? I'm not equating any with the Isreali situation but ETA, IRA and Chechen rebels all survived intense state repression, Hamas even got elected. Is there evidence to suggest Hezbollah will be any different??

i knew the crusades would come up! the first crusade was called as a defensive measure by pope urban II in 1095 to aid the byzantines in the face of turkish and muslim aggression. there was no mention by the pope of conversion or conquest.

its largely forgotten in this country that islamic power reached well into europe including much of france, maybe if they had reached britain we'd not be so quick to apologise for the crusades. of course not all intentions of the crusades were pure of heart... but they came in the aftermath of centuries of islamic aggression and expansion. yet we never hear about that!

good points. with regards to al-qaeda, they are primarily after the removal of foreign troops from saudi soil... it champions causes like chechnya, iraq, palestine and wherever muslims face struggle but they are not bin laden's quarrell. they have their notoriety now but the aim of al-qaeda is for saudi arabia to be free of the american military installations.

u got access to some sort of satelite imagery that proves israel attack hizbullah first this time?

it's not just about who hit who first you muppet