Pointless

When have I said anything of the sort?

Religion is the scapegoat of the ignorant momos; it’s as naive to blame religion for wars as it is to blame gangster rap for the desperate condition of American minorities. Musicians did not sculpt the aggressive money fuelled culture that exists within America’s inner cities – only those with an agenda or a profound retardation would try to argue this.

It’s as equally ridiculous to blame the wars of man on overwhelmingly peaceful faiths.

You listed several conflicts which would appear to revolve around a religious cores, yet you failed to mention the context in which they arose - take the middle east conflict; this is not the product of a religious war it’s the struggle of two peoples for a geographical region (the Palestinian & Jewish militias had traditionally been secular).

Fanaticism is a reaction to forced change – it is neither a product of, nor exclusive to religion.

Religion has sculpted the modern conscience all those values that you hold so close to your heart are rooted in the religious doctrine your fore fathers subscribed to. Science without religion is science without a morality… We need only look as far as Nazi Germany to realise the horrors that unethical science can thrust upon mankind.

you can have morals without religion though - religion is just stories of morals that people have elevated to 'god like status' to appease their own sense of guilt and emptiness

i NEED guidance.
i NEED to feel secure.
i'm SCARED of dying.

pah. wake up. we're nothing. we'll all be dead soon. the whole planet - and you know what? no-one will care and nothing will remain

However, if u can't handle the truth and believing that there IS some point to all gives you some comfort during life - so be it.

Wot wot dear boy??

Blaming the wars of man on religion? Isnt it built into Judaism that God will support the armies of those who believe?

If you have two sides of people who believe that, how can they both be right?

If you want an example of how powerful religion is, or how strongly people feel about it just look at this thread. If people feel strongly enough to argue it for 30 pages, then imagine how others could feel about their religion.

Making out that 'the wars of man' and peaceful religions are two separate issues is bollocks, it is the members of so called peaceful faiths who are actually fighting the war.

How can you believe this Joe? If anything in this thread is right, it is that Religion causes war. I thought it was accepted? Obviously not. Obviously people are still "blinded by religion".

Its like Hitler and people who have committed war crimes - they had been swept up in the wave, but in hindsight, it was wrong.

wake up?

All you can be certain of is you are born with nothing and you die with nothing, what happens when youre gone is something none of us know... You pressume youre correct and from the assumption you have constructed a bizarre arrogance.... You're confusing your opinion with fact.

How do you think the moral conscience evolved MoS? Do you think we share the same moral backbone as headhunters in australasia? Your mindset is the product of religious evolution... Whether you accept religion now is inconsequential... You are the product of a religious legacy.

Which part of Judaism says this?

substantiate this opinion then... Find me a war which is the result of religion and not external influence.

have to seriously disagree there like joe.
majority of conflicts are caused by difference in religious beliefs, its the same mentality as football hooliganism. prime example is the civil unrest in iraq right now. why? coz they have different (and only slightly) religious beliefs.

As I said to your missus... show me a war that was only faught over religion (nothing more/nothing less).

so b4 religion, humans had NO morals? morals formed religions, and people exploited/used these religions as control. Egyptians did the same, create false gods to control the population.

i agree i am the product of a religious legacy - but i'm now choosing truth over fiction - and how can science be bizzare

you've done well keeping it all going, u believe everything say and have the courage of your convictions so you've got my respect, for what it's worth - but in my opinion, you're wrong - and at the moment, neither points of view can be proven to be correct

Unrest...catholic and protestant in ireland

war...shias and sunnis in iraq

other wars may be "supposedly" about land and boudaries such as the jews and palistinians but at the end of the day its basis and routed cause IS religion.

Nothing to do with religion, its a power struggle between those that want to remain British and those that want to be untied with Ireland.... Religion was just a eans of identifying which side you belonged to.

Again nothing to do with religion, this is a power struggle... they're not fighting in the name of G-d they're fighting in the name of man... the balance of power has been tipped on its head which has left a vacuum of chaos.

You're confused Ness... if you removed religion from both regions you'd still have the same conflict.

I asked for a battle which was caused by religion and religion alone.

Thats exactly what I'm saying and historical record would appear to support me.

Exactly, but you must remember I'm not the one who came here proselytizing my faith... that would be andy and forks forcing their views upon others... They're no better than those nutters that want an islamic state or the loons with the end of day placards on the metro.

http://wais.stanford.edu/Conference/conference_religioncausewar20401.html - I eally don't know which particular bit says it, But how can a professor at Stanford University argue this if it is untrue? I can find it in the Quran however.

And the Wars and conflicts have already been mentioned Joe, you seem reluctant to accept these wars boil down to conflict brought about and fueled by religion. This is your opinion of course you are entitled to it, I just think you are wrong.

It doesn't cite any references to the Tanakh... this could be his personal interpretation of scripture... research your own opinions, never rely on the accuracy of others

What are you talking about?

The wars would still exist if the religion was removed... Neither were caused by religion!

Are you seriously suggesting that the IRA formed to convert the protestants to catholicism?

Or that the shia sunni conflict in Iraq, isn't the consequence of a redistribution of power?(as the result of an INVASION)

I asked you a very simple question... and none of you have been able to provide an answer.

hmm, and it could be my personal interpretation too - no one has fact here - its all down to personal interpretation isnt it!! lol - how reliable!!

We have provided answers Joe you just wont accept them.

You can't provide an answer to satisfy us?

Or have a go - Can you prove that any of the conflicts mentioned have not been brought about or fueled by religion?

:argue: lol, loving it.

This whole thread will make no difference, as if Joe does not believe us when we give "fact" as we know it,

and we do not believe him when he gives us "fact" as he knows it

Then we will get no-where,

the whole thread is

POINTLESS

remove religion and there wouldn't be any "side" to belong to. no doubt conflict would still happen all over the world but it would remove a lot of the excuses or justifications behind the conflict.

shall i delete it? i have the powerrrrrrrrrrrr

How can it be your interpretation when you've never read the scripture?

Yes.

The Northern Ireland conflict is a struggle was never about religion, it was about re-unification of northern ireland with sourthern ireland, if you removed religion from the conflict the IRA wouldn't suddenly stop wanting to be free of British rule?!?!?!?

Similarly under Saddam it was clear who controlled the power (Sunni Muslims), with the toppling of this regime ethnic & cultural groups sprung up in a struggle to seize power (kurds, secularists, sunnis, muslims, etc.)... If you removed the Sunni & Shia strains of muslim from Iraq the war wouldn't go away you'd still have factions battling for supremacy.

To state that religion is the cause of most the wars in the world would suggest that religion were the cause... I can't think of one war where this is the case (I'm sure there have been, but the fact it is so hard ot think of one is a testament to how uncommon they are)... However the most bloody wars and tragic genocides were all free of religion (communism, ww1 & 2,etc.)

lol those loyal to great britain would still fight against those loyal to southern ireland?!?!?

Iraq is more complex, but you're dealing tribal communities and these tribal groups would still battle for supremacy.

In both the examples that you've provided the religion acts as a tool for identifying your allie/foe... in neither case has it been the cause.